Tuesday, May 10, 2011

Pegged Beads (And My Turmoil About Them)

This is a sensitive subject—the fly-fishing version of bringing up politics at a mixed family barbecue, or religion at the pub. The pegged egg. If you have no idea what I am talking about (congratulations!) you need not read any farther. Go about your day…and the rest of your enjoyable fishing life. But, if you know exactly what I am talking about, well…you most likely have an opinion on the subject. Probably a fairly strong, well-entrenched opinion. For those not in the know and not following my advise to look away…here is the low down. “Pegging an egg” is taking a plastic bead the size and color of a trout or salmon egg, threading it onto your leader and pegging it into place with a sliver of wooden toothpick—then tying on a bare hook. The idea is that the fish eats the “egg” and the act of setting the hook dislodges the pegged bead and slides the bare hook into the mouth of the fish…or at least the vicinity of the mouth. Spawning trout and salmon have a wicked desire to eat eggs, so this method is unbelievably effective. Although, it could be argued (and is by many) that this is just a creative way to “floss” spawning fish…or is just a thinly veiled form of snagging—often in the face and eye of the fish. Is it not snagging? Let me ask this: if you are drifting a two-fly dry/dropper rig and a trout rises to the dry, but misses it…and you hook the trout in the belly with the dropper nymph (this happens all the time)…is this not an accidentally snagged fish? Is this not the same thing? Or is the bare hook hanging menacingly behind the bead a very deliberate attempt to snag a fish? If so, should it be legal?

A close friend of mine claims there is no difference between a plastic bead threaded onto fishing line and a more conventional “fly” tied with some synthetic materials. I badly want to disagree with him…but I honestly don’t know the answer. I once won an argument in a fly shop with none other than legendary fly tier AK Best about a similar topic. He put forth the notion that something tied using anything other than natural fur and feather was not a true “fly”. My reply was simple—you tie on nothing but bone hooks, then…right? Nope? Metal hooks? OK, then… So, what is the definition of a fly? Does it have to be tied by hand? Does it have to have thread? When does it cross realms into the world of “lures”? Again…I honestly do not have the answer. There is a sea of grey and many animated opinions on the subject. But, one thing I do know for sure…if a classically-tied Jock Scott is on one end of the argument, the pegged egg is certainly on the exact opposite. And, if you peg beads on the river and feel you are still fly fishing…you have made a very clear personal statement declaring that the act of fly fishing has absolutely nothing to do with what you have tied to the end of your leader. The only remaining question is; if you skewer a night crawler onto a treble hook and heave it into a trout stream…with a fly rod…is that still considered fly fishing? Or is it actually bait fishing? Is it the rod in your hand or the object at the end of your line that defines you as a fly fisherman? Is a man fly fishing if he is using a spinning rod with a clear casting bubble and a fly? No, right? Again…is it the rod in your hand or the object at the end of your line that defines you as a fly fisherman? Or is it both?

Post Publish Analysis

As I predicted, this story has generated a lot of discussion. Perfect. I wanted all of us (as fishermen) to think about this topic and have an intelligent conversation about it. It is important and very topical. There are several states intending to ban the practice very soon. The argument has gone on here in blog form as well as Facebook, and in the fly shop and at home... I have spoken to many hard-core bead peggers, as well as some of the more respected fly designers in the world...and some of the Old Guard fly fishermen. The conversations seemed to gravitate to three different topics, the first two being: What constitutes a fly? And, what constitutes a fly rod? It became apparent early that most fishermen considered fly fishing something that must be done with a fly rod at one end and a fly at the other—but then, semantics entered the ring! The argument about what a fly rod is, well, that one was fairly easy. Most fishermen are willing to agree on a fairly broad description of what a fly rod is. The difference between a fly and a lure? Now that generated some debate. The general consensus was that if it is tied, it is a fly…molded or formed (i.e. glue gun egg) then it was considered a lure. Half of each? Generally accepted as a fly—benefit of the doubt, I guess? But, the ONLY fishermen who thought a plastic bead was a fly was…well, no one. The retort I got from the Bead Fishermen was sort of defensive. Some attempted to put a plastic bead into the same category as a fly that incorporates a touch of foam or synthetic flash—a logic I have a hard time following, even in my open-minded state. This logic kind of insinuates that an eight-inch jointed Rapala could be called a fly—WTF? So, the conclusion (for now) is that bead pegging is not fly fishing! OK. Not that big of deal. Most of us have spent a portion of our fishing life as a “conventional gear” fisherman already anyway. Most state fishing regulations are exactly the same for both styles. No Bait—Flies & Artificial Lures Only. Artificial lures…I guess that’s you guys, Beaders. Again, no big deal!

Then the conversation got heated. The third question everyone migrated to was: Is it snagging? This one sort of makes the fist two questions a bit moot, don’t ya think? The self-proclaimed Beaders in the room did some very odd, but creative mental gymnastics to separate what they were doing from the illegal act of “snagging”—frantic semantic scrambling is a better way to put it. The argument degenerated/evolved into one party offering up hypothetical scenarios and the other party attempting to categorize it as Snagging, Foul Hooking (apparently the accidental form of the deliberate act of Snagging) and Fair Practice. If you are fishing a two-fly dry/dropper rig and a trout rises to the dry, but misses it…and you hook the trout in the belly with the dropper nymph? Unanimously…Foul Hooked. Now, let us say you are fishing Gunnison Canyon during the big stonefly hatch. Your rig is a big #6 Soffa Pillow dry…with the hook clipped off! Presumably to make it look more natural on the surface of the water. And you have somehow rigged a bare treble hook a foot or so behind it. When a 20 inch brown trout takes the dry fly the fisherman yanks back…. OK, ya getting the point?

My own conclusion is logical and unarguably simple. If you fool a fish into willingly taking your disguised hook into its mouth…you are “angling”. If you force a hook into a fish…you are “snagging”. If you purposely distance the hook away from the “lure” object in which you are fishing (be it two feet or two inches)…and then pull the hook into the fish once it has taken the “lure’…then you are still snagging fish. I guess most laws have just not caught up with our conniving technology…

72 comments:

  1. Pegged eggs fall into exactly the same category as plastic worms fished on a fly rod...Lures, not flies. Just the fact that they are not "tied" along with their inherent lack of a hook make them so. Yes, I know tube flies don't have a hook, but they are tied, so...
    The sooner we all admit that this game we play is NOT about catching fish at any cost, the better off we'll all be. Fish eat cheese, marshmallows and corn too. Flyfishing is SUPPOSED TO BE more difficult!

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  2. "Just the fact that they are not "tied" "

    Have you ever seen the egg flies that are nothing more than a hook and some hot glue dripped on it? Would you not consider that a fly?

    All these questions raised are on personal convictions of each and every fly guy and gal. To take a side on one side of the fence or the other will do nothing but stomp on someone's toes. There is no hard and fast rule with these because there is no hard and fast rule for fishing.

    One needs to find their own answers to these Q's and realize that there will be others that do not have these same convictions. As long as the laws are being followed and the angler is basically being ethical (no catching the fish, snapping it's neck and throwing it back) we may have a right to grumble about our differences but we really shouldn't judge. We all get our kicks by jamming a hook through a fishes jaw and dragginging it 50' through the water to hand, after all.

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  3. J
    Looks like you have stirred up a very large pot of Witches Brew, including Bats, Cats & Rats.
    Congrats!!!!!!

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  4. Hot glue on a hook? That's arts and crafts, not a fly.

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  5. egg flies and worms in general are pretty bull shit, I mean come on, I know alot of people started flyfishing because they didnt like fishing with worms and power bait and whatnot so why tie a fly to immitate a worm?

    that being said, peggings alright in my book, I try to avoid it but in some instances when I want to catch really large fish its definately the way and while the difficulty that is inherent in fly fishing is affected to some extent by this method I still have to find the fish, make a good drift, play him and land him, sorry the big guys arent always sipping spinners

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  6. So this is all foreign to me but it makes me wonder about something. I talked with a fisherman this weekend who caught Blue Gill for the sole purpose of putting a hook through their tails and using them as live bait to catch bigger fish. Seemed like cheating to me. Set the Blue Gill Free! that is what I say.
    sgb

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  7. End the debate... throw away the rods, fake flies, fake eggs, all the slight of hand hocus pocus and just use a spear. Or better yet, try going vegan and leave the defenseless fish alone.
    bhive

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  8. I'd rather eat my arm than become vegan. Somewhere a long time ago someone said I'll call this fly fishing and I will only use natural materials to entice the fish. As time progressed man invented laws that separated the worm dunkers from the lure fisherman and the fly fisherman. If the law says it's legal and your conscience doesn't bother you one little bit...have a ball.

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  9. Yes, set the Blue Gill Free!

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  10. Here's my take... You and I both know that TB's work. and they work well. They take fish that other flies wont at the moment. Colorado fish havent seen a bunch of them so they are new to them.
    Another thing you and I both know.. It is a bit of a cheat but the guides should fish them on clients rigs... Ive fished them, caught fish, felt like a cheat, got my pic and tried to get everyone to try it...
    Not the way to do it if your trying to get with a hand tied fly.. But its the way to go If you know they will eat eggs.
    As to the snagging fish part... Its not snagging if the fish is trying to eat it! fighting a fish hooked in outside of the face kinda sucks!

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  11. Yeah! Using a bluegill as bait is as bad or worse than sticking a hook into a squirming nightcrawler. As to the snagging debate...that sure seems like snagging to me. Congrats anyway,Jay, on stirring up debate.

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  12. If you are a purist and only want to catch fish with fur and feather - more power to you...

    But if you use foam, flashabou or any other plastic then you can't dis the bead...

    For one thing it is one of the most humane ways to catch fish when done properly... the bead is fixed within 2" of the hook (which can be a flesh fly or nymph for that matter) and when the fish picks up the 'egg', the hook hits the corner the corner of the jaw and is easily removed without harming the fish.

    This isn't to say that everyone does it right... some folks peg the bead so far from the hook that it can snag eyes, bellies, gills... or they use a 1/0 hook and tear up the fishes mouth. Don't do that!

    And you need to do a good job of matching the hatch just like any other imitation. After a trout has picked up a bead it gets more and more discerning. Those that make a science of the bead, use any number or different coatings to change shape, color and texture of the imitation. It is as much a thinking man's game as any.

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  13. My own conclusion is logical and unarguably simple. If you fool a fish into willingly taking your disguised hook into its mouth…you are “angling”. If you force a hook into a fish…you are “snagging”. If you purposely distance the hook away from the “lure” object in which you are fishing (be it two feet or two inches)…and then pull the hook into the fish once it has taken the “lure’…then you are still snagging fish. I guess most laws have just not caught up with our conniving technology…

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  14. Well said, Jay.

    To the pegged bead snaggers: why not use a big treble on the end? It'd make it much easier to snag that fish.

    If it isn't about making it easier to snag the fish (the next thing one usually hears in this argument), then why not place the lure ON the hook?

    By the pegging rationale, I should be able to chum a hole, and once the fish are gorging themselves on eggs, I can rip a hook through the hole, hoping to connect. I mean...I *did* cause them to choose to willingly feed on my offering, so I have carte blanche to get a hook into them in any way possible...right???

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  15. Perpetrating the Fraud... that's all that fly fishing is. But defining the fraud that you want to perpetrate, now that's debatable.

    Good topic Jay. Until someone debates it, sometimes we don't understand the potentially unethical aspects. I think I'll give me unused beads to my granddaughter for some artsy stuff.

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  16. I hate arguments.
    "If you fool a fish into willingly taking your disguised hook into its mouth…you are “angling”. If you force a hook into a fish…you are “snagging”."
    You can't argue with this logic, it is air tight.Anything else said is for the sake of argument alone.

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  17. you all need to just relax and stop trying to make judgements on how others are fishing. if you don't like bead fishing, then don't use beads when you fish. if you care that someone does use them and calls it fly fishing then you just might have a problem. just get out there, have fun, catch fish, and keep the rivers clean by picking up your own trash as well as trash left by others. end of story.

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  18. Yeah...so that sounds all sweet and loving and makes me feel all tingly and good inside, Anonymous. But wait. Without us being both introspective (judging our selves) and being critical of others (civilly and constructively) we would never have advanced as a culture, civilization or had proper laws to govern our empires. A laissez-faire, live and let live attitude is not always the best path...if you want to improve or advance, that is. Did it hurt your brain to think about this, Anonymous? You did not offer us any of your insight on the matter. What gives? Do semantic conversations confuse you and make you uncomfortable? Do you even get the point of semantics? In closing..."just get out there, have fun, catch fish" is your advise. I love it. Tell me, Anonymous, your favorite fishing hole...and I will round up some old Army buddies and we can bring snaggin' rods and maybe some grenades! OH WAIT! That has been deemed "not fair chase" by most state fish and game departments and is now illegal! I will give you one guess how that all got started. (A SEMANTIC CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW OTHERS CHOSE TO FISH!)

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  19. I choose to fly fish because it's an extremely effective method for catching fish. Frankly, it takes the luck out of the process. The art of fly fishing, in my mind, involves interpreting the environmental circumstances and selecting the optimal fly/lure and technique for presentation (and, of course, executing). Pegged eggs, in the right circumstances, provide this optimal approach; and, a properly rigged pegged egg will almost always hook in the corner of the fish's mouth (small fish are the exception). This being the case, I support pegged eggs. Recognizing that there is some percentage of fish that will still be snagged, I would like offer the following question to "egg" on the debate: Multi-fly rigs inevitably snag (foul hook) fish; either as a result of late or premature sets, hooked fish rolling, or when a fish gets off. If you submit that snagging is unacceptable when fly fishing, then do you agree that we should only use one-fly rigs?

    Great feed.

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  20. Interesting (and good) point, Anonymous...I will be thinking about it for a few days.

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  21. hi Jay, interesting subject, article and comments. here's my take (and many others) on what constitutes fly fishing, something i always bring up when teaching beginners (i'm a casting instructor).
    what truly separates fly fishing from other forms of fishing is neither the rod nor the fly but the fly line. in other forms of cast line fishing the weight at the end of the line pulls the line behind it. in FF the line pulls the fly. it's the line we cast, not the rod.
    personally, i couldn't care less what one or another might think a fly is, i somewhat regularly use bare red grub hooks as chironomids with success. those most definitely are not flies ! :D
    however if one form of fly or method of fishing is more likely to snag or 'foul hook' a fish, specially knowingly so, then i'm entirely against it and completely agree with the last paragraph of your post analysis.
    cheers,
    marc

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  22. A fly, by legal definition in the Great State of Connecticut, is a "single or double hook dressed with hair, feathers....". A bare hook is not a fly. So let's not kid ourselves about a bare hook being a fly. That's just BS. And if you're not using a fly, you're certainly not fly fishing.

    I don't care what kind of fly you use, natural or synthetic, bug or egg, I'm not going to tell you how to fly fish.

    I also don't care if you're dunking worms, shiners or triple-jointed, treble-hooked Rapalas, that's still angling. I do it from time to time. It's good fun.

    But if you're trying to trick a fish into getting close to a bare hook so you can foul hook it, well, that's not angling. In Connecticut we have a legal definition for intentionally foul hooking fish, it's called snagging.

    Put the bead on the hook and we'll have no problems.

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  23. The guy who was trying to get the Moffett fishing system off the ground a couple of years ago made convincing arguments that fish hooked outside the mouth are injured less than those hooked on the inside, and some pretty knowledgeable people (John Merwin and John Randolph) endorsed the idea. I've never used pegged beads (or the Moffett system) or seen anyone use them, but I have seen one hell of a lot of snagged fish on the Great Lakes tribs (and even a few at Montauk, with plugs, not flies.) To me, what separates snagging from fishing is the participation of the fish. If the fish bites, it's fishing, and no one disputes the fish bite the beads, right?

    Are we saying that the challenge lies in getting a fish to bite something that plainly has a hook sticking out of it? I don't think it does. I think a fish might learn over time that a fly-like thing that behaves a little strangely is something to be avoided, but I don't think they ever actually figure out what a hook is.
    I'm reminded of Gierach's contention that the perfect match for one of his local midge pupae would be a cream-colored hook. And while I've never tried this either, and speaking again of Montauk, I have no doubt that a bluefish in a blitz would bite a bare hook.

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  24. Morgan. Great points here. There may be some legitimacy to where the safest place to hook a fish is...but what separates snagging from angling is fooling the fish into taking the hook (bare or hidden with a fly, bait or rubber grub) into its mouth. Yes...you need fish participation, but trapping a muskrat does not involve throwing 4 1/2 inch conibears at the nearest rat hoping to lasso the thing. I guess that would be "hunting"...oddly. I agree that pegging a bead is a far cry from raking a weighted treble hook through a river, but I find it difficult (even impossible?) to exclude both from the broad category of Snagging Fish--if you remove all biases and pre-conceived notions or opinions birthed from attempting to defend ones own actions. Which is difficult. Again...

    From Me--"If you fool a fish into willingly taking your disguised hook into its mouth…you are “angling”. If you force a hook into a fish…you are “snagging”."

    From Steve-- "But if you're trying to trick a fish into getting close to a bare hook so you can foul hook it, well, that's not angling. In Connecticut we have a legal definition for intentionally foul hooking fish, it's called snagging. "

    From Mark--"By the pegging rationale, I should be able to chum a hole, and once the fish are gorging themselves on eggs, I can rip a hook through the hole, hoping to connect. I mean...I *did* cause them to choose to willingly feed on my offering, so I have carte blanche to get a hook into them in any way possible...right??? "

    BTW...the Moffit silliness? Nope. Not gonna get into that mess...

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    1. You keep saying that "If you force a hook into a fishes mouth it is snagging". No matter how you look at it, every, and I mean EVERY hook is forced into a fishes mouth. They absolutely do not want it there.

      From my own experiences, properly using a bead causes way less damage to trout faces, gills, tounges and causes less mortality. They are nearly always hooked in the lips. If you have never done it, try it and find out for yourself. As long as it is legal in your state.

      Two inches or less from the hook, and a hook of appropriate size. The facts will show that I am not lying.

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    2. I believe you are missing the point...and not understanding the not-do-subtle difference between "snagging" and "setting the hook". I am a bit disappointed. Did not think I would have to explain the difference between those two things. Ugg....

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  25. We must all catch our own fish, and the heart always chooses the right fly- sometimes that fly is a streamer with GIGANTIC barbell tungsten eyes, sometimes its a foam hopper , beatle, or ant, sometimes that fly has plastic sheet wings or an epoxy body.. sometimes its a bead. The reality of flyfishing is in the heart... I don't care what anyone thinks, but if John Gierach shows up standing next to me while im fishing a bead... i,ll take it off out of respect, if he takes off those deadly hip waders-

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  26. it is snagging ! maybe the problem is with the mentality of most of the beaders. catch fish at any cost. why bother using a fly rod? and done properly it does less damage? find ten guys doing it and 9 will have a giant hook, and dont give a shit what happens to the fish. me personaly, i'd support a single fly rule. after all two fly rigs do exponentially more damage. i prefer to catch fish that dont look like they're smiling.
    and most of those douchebags are doing it to fish on redds. (that means they are SPAWNING)

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    1. I use beads occasionally. I never peg the bead more than 2 inches from the hook, never use a big hook (I often use a fly for the hook anyway) and I never go after fish on redds. I get what you're saying about the mentality of some guys, and I can see where you're coming from as I've seen the same thing. But, there is guys doing it that actually care about ethics and aren't jerks that don't care about the well-being of the fish. "Why bother using a fly rod"? Well, honestly, you could fish a stonefly nymph on a spinning rod with split shot and a bobber. Drifting a bead is no different than drifting a nymph.

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  27. Like most things we need some laws to help keep the selfish people in line. No huge hooks and limit the length of the distance between the hook and the bead.

    If you disallow this practice then I think you need to disallow 2 and 3 fly rigs as well.

    For me this is mostly about the health of the fish. If you devise a method that hooks fish in the mouth at the same percentage as a two fly rig and it does not involve live bait and it keeps the fish healthy then go for it. Treat the fish carefully and return them to the water as fast as possible. Handle them as little as possible.

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  28. Valid points...and well said. I would support a blanket, catch & release on wild trout with no barbs and one fly. Would miss my dry and dropper rigs, but a small price to pay. I foul hook less than 1/100 as it is now...because I set the dropper so far away from the dry in most cases...but will reconcider even that.

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  29. I would hate to give up my hopper dropper rig or my two fly rig and I have no issue with beads as long as it does not harm the fish.

    As far as catch and release I don't see the need to take any trout out of any river. Want to eat a trout.......go to a lake or a restaurant. If we changed to that restriction here in CO we would boost tourist dollars big time because we would have huge rout in our river system.

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  30. wow. 10 month debate. well done sir

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  31. found this whole thing a very interesting read. how about putting a bead on a hook(or a glo bug) and dropping a flesh fly or just a small anything fly in the appropriate size. should have the same results as a "pegged" no different then a hopper dropper combo and might appease both sides. this is why i quit quiding flyfisherman on the missouri river in montana too many high and might purists out there so quick to rain on everyone parade. it should be about enjoying the outdoors not what the guy in the other boat is doing. i dont agree with snagging fish but hey almost every spawing salmon up here in alaska is "flossed" so are we all snaggers? regardless good post most all valid points.

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    1. Thanks for reading and having an opinion. This story was posted to shed light and make fishermen think a bit... but I wonder about the "almost every spawning salmon up here in Alaska is "flossed" " comment. I have lived in Alaska for some time and worked as a hunting guide, fishing guide and as a commercial fisherman...and spent much of my life salmon fishing. And always found it hilarious to hear the locals tell me I had to snag them, that they would not eat...seemed like three out of every four Alaskan fly fishermen had no idea what-so-ever how to fly fish. Use the right streamer, swing it the right way...and you will never (or at least hardly ever) floss a fish. Btw...if being vocally anti-snagging makes me a purist...well, shit...

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  32. I was going to add some arguments to this post but after reading the blog it seams that everything I was thinking about and more has already been covered.

    I'm still on the fence. I agree with a lot of the comments and your argument of "forcing a hook into the fish = snagging" is a compelling one. But it seems that if pegged beads are going to be band then multi-fly rigs should also be band. A possible compromise might be to implement a no-pegging and one-fly only rule. Maybe this could be implemented on the Blue Ribbon fly fishing only river sections.

    Fishing comes in many forms and ranges for sagging to the dry fly only purists. They are all legal given the right situation. I don't think that we can (or should) band any form of fishing without reasonable justification. Please consider this as part of your argument and don't advocate banning pegged beads just because your snagging the fish in the mouth. Same argument could go for flossing fish (are you going to ban spay casting streamers next?).

    I feel that a summation of points from both sides is needed. I'd also like to hear your final decision on fishing a two fly system.

    Great post Jay. Lets make it a year+ long post why don't we.

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    1. Thank you for the well-put reply...I agree that an unbais summation is needed. And I don't have a final decision about the multi-fly thing. I have been listening to hundreds of conversations about this all...and doing my best to stay open minded.

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  33. so, if I put my aircraft aluminum space age reel on a sage high modulous "one" rod, string my machine formed royal wulff triangle taper through the newest wave guides, loop my airflo poly leader through the preformed loops and then loop on some sweet fluoro carbon leader to my lazer sharpened hook... is it exactly when I slide the bead on that I step away from the art.. that it stops being hard? that enlightenment dies.. is this when the canine teeth of the carnivour fish counter " ( excuse me for a second.. my interchangeable sole came off my korkers on the edge of the swinging door of the pavati drift boat ) so, anyway... back to purism.. real flyfishing.. well my point, question is.... does this mean I cannot be an Orvis endorsed guide?

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    1. Step way from the Irish Whiskey for just one evening and re-write this mess...what the hell are you talking about?

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  34. ok Mr Zimmerman.. this time with thrift... the very existence of this post, its amazing stamina.. the fact that the bead is even an arguement.. and the fact that grown men are perplexed by it, explains a great deal why most non-fly fishers... think fly fisher's are ***holes, and more often than not, they are-

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    1. A little better. So...am I to understand that contemplating the ethics of my own sport makes me an asshole? If this is the case, I no longer believe whiskey is your biggest problem. I have known many criminals who thought cops were "assholes". Also many poachers who thought game wardens were "assholes". You obviously choose to peg beads, probably learned about it up in Alaska...and now that you have had a good whiff of the crack, you will likely never kick the habit. But don't get your knickers all bound up in your ass when I call you out... Pegging beads is not the end of the world. Many of my friends also do it. They will not cease being my friends. I still fish with them. If I knew you in person I am almost certain we would have beers (or a shot of that Irish goodness) and go fishing together. You may call me a d-bag and I may call you a snagger...whatever. Stop being a pussy.

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  35. To comment on the "snagging vs angling" debate, I'd like to say a couple of things. First, off pegging a bead 2 inches above your hook and hooking a fish with the hook or fly below the bead is not snagging. Sure, you could technically say that by setting the hook your forcing it into the mouth of the fish. However, you're forcing a hook into the mouth by setting the hook with a fly as well. If the fish eats the bead, how is it any different than the fish eating a stonefly nymph? Only difference is the stonefly has the hook on it and the bead has the hook a couple of inches below it. The bead is a better way to CPR fish than nymphs and glo-bugs.

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    1. Well put, Captain. You have my attention...but the one thing you are loosing me on is the not-do-subtle difference between "snagging" and "setting the hook".

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  36. all this debate aside, its interesting no one has really focused on the reason behind using beads vs using a standard egg fly. If someone has, I must have missed it in the myriad of postings, and I apologize.

    from the perspective of C&R fishing, beads to me, and in my experience, have been proven to be safer for the fish. Let me preface this with I just started to fish beads this fall in an effort to prove either way, in my own experience, if beads made sense or not. Lets just say, I was skeptical about the efficacy and safety when I started on this journey.


    The two reasons why I think bead egg patterns\presentations really are safer than on the hook egg patterns;

    1. Since there is no obstruction on the hook, you get to use all the gap, and as such, you can use a smaller hook to catch the same size fish. Smaller hooks are generally accepted to cause\create less damage on the hook set and removal.

    2. Since the hook is set into the outside of the fish's jaw, it is FAST to remove and reduces risk of the trout swallowing the hook deep or getting hooked in a delicate area further down the mouth. ~60% of the time, the hook falls out when i have the fish in my landing net. I like to use 2499SPBL's in a #14 and have caught trout from ~6" all the way up to about 20".

    Out of all the fish I've caught on a pegged bead, I've only ever foul hooked one in the stomach, and that's when I first started to try this method of fishing and had the hook tied ~6" back. My fault entirely.

    Since i've moved the hook ~2" away, the hook placement has been without fail right in the corner of the jaw on the outside. Generally speaking, its in the more cartilaginous area of the jaw rather than a fleshy bit. It's never been near an eye or a gill.

    Id continue to argue, that with smaller fish, this method of presenting an egg pattern is SAFER than a traditional egg pattern on a standard size ~#8-14hook since small fish have a tendency to be very aggressive and have the hook come very close to the eyes when hooked inside the mouth.


    but frankly, I could care less* about elitist-snobbery-exclusive bullshit that goes on with most of these discussions about what does and doesn't fall into someones ivory tower classification of something. Use it or Dont use it.


    The exception being if said something is illegal per the local DOW.

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  37. I am glad this debate goes on. Great points being put forth. I would be careful suggesting beads because they are supposedly safer on the fish. Because, using that lodgic we fishermen should drop our rods and carry rubber nets...

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    1. Then I too would suggest everyone else be careful in taking the guise of this being an ethical decision, for if its this fish's safety we are to be most concerned with, then we should all consider the true benefits of fishing beads instead of concerning ourselves with some pointless definition of what is and isn't something.

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    2. We can be both concerned with safety for the fish as well as actually catching them. Finding that balance between our recreation and their safety is key to the topic. No need to make it extreme in one direction or another.

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    3. Just so I understand; as far as I can tell, I was the first person to suggest fishing with a pegged bead might actually be safer than fishing with a standard egg on hook pattern, of about ~50 previous posters, and I'm pegged (pun intended!) as the one being extreme?

      I was just trying to input some actual reason and thought behind why people might actually choose to fish with a bead, rather than unproductively try to classify if something falls within someone else definition of something. Furthermore, that previous discussion of angling\snagging\fly\lure\bullshit had absolutely nothing to do with actual ethics with respect to the fish's safety.

      It's clear you don't believe fishing with beads is "actually catching them," so I'll assume you think this is snagging. Personally, I'm fine with that and I honestly don't care, and I wont try (nor have I even attempted to do so) to convince you or anyone else otherwise. But to turn this into me being overly extreme because i was the first person here to suggest there might actually be GOOD reasons to fish pegged, I really dont appreciate that.

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    4. Phil, either I wasn't clear or you read that wrong, most likely it was my fault. Sorry if I came across as critical of your post which I actually support.

      Jay made the statement that if we are really concerned with fish safety then that leads us to stop fishing with rods all together. That is what I considered extreme. My reply to his comment looked like I was reply to yours. My point is that we can still fish with our fly rods while protecting fish.

      Some "purists" want to call this type of fishing something other than fly fishing or to label it as unethical. I think if you want to be an ethical fisherman, you should prioritize fish safety as very important. I think we are in agreement on that.

      Happy fishing!

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    5. I understand your argument, Phil. And I agree with yours, Mode. First we define what is "sporting" and ethical, then we find the safest ways within those realms. Because, if we eliminated that first step as anglers we could then easily convince ourselves that, like I said earlier, we should drop our rods and tackle and only take game fish with rubber nets! For it is the safest on the fish! But we don't. Dip netting game fish is illegal, and unsporting. As is snagging!

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  38. Pretty interesting stuff here. I am new to the sport, hired a guide recently and used these pegged eggs. I found that I was able to remove the hook really easily and I thought that I was doing far less damage to the fish so I felt it was a win-win. I get fish, fish get set free with little to no harm.

    Earlier in the season I was really struggling with hook removal and was unhappy with some of the apparent damage I was causing. Going barbless and going away from a double-rig helped a lot.

    So, in doing a google search for pegged eggs to add to my armamentarium, I came across this blog. I guess it's time for me to back away and think this through. I don't want to be a snagging snagger, but I also want to catch fish and be able to release them with the smallest amount of harm possible.

    I guess I don't have much to add to the knowledge on the board but appreciate the discussion and the thought put into it.

    Peace!

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  39. Let's not forget the reason pegged beads were introduced in the first place. If I'm not mistaken they were used by salmon fishermen who were hooking fish too deep for a safe release....a problem I've never had in hundreds of days on the rivers and lakes around CO. So why the hell were they brought down here to stocker country in the first place? To make it easier I assume. If the fish can't see the tippet then it's advantageous to separate hook and egg. If that's the end game, why not use a treble? Surely that would increase your hookups.

    Many of us who have spent a lot of time on the water take great pride in our style of angling. To force the hook after the fact, rather than fool them into tasting it is a mockery. I like to put every advantage in the home court when I go out, if I didn't I would not feel right about harassing these poor fish for sport. I can understand a guide's need to get his/her clients hooked up, but the self proclaimed die-hard trout anglers that are pegging beads just seem foolish to me. I feel the same way about barbed hooks, but that is another discussion.

    Those who don the "I don't care what anyone else thinks" attitude are the unfortunate downside of this hobby/sport/obsession of ours. That's the human element for you.

    It's crystal clear to me, if they aren't eating the hook then you're doing it wrong. I understand that it's safer to hook outside of the mouth...well it's better for their mouths to hook them in the tail, but who the fuck wants to do that? It's a glorified form of snagging, prove me wrong.

    I imagine there's a reason competition anglers aren't pegging beads....honor perhaps?

    See ya on the water,
    troutsmasher@gmail.com

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  40. A pegged bead is more akin to a trap than a fly or lure. If trout and salmon really do inhale an egg, how does placing the hook 2" from the hook change the equation. I would imagine that in at least half the strikes, the hook would end up deeper than the egg. If fish are actually being hooked on the outside of the mouth the argument "for" is DOA. The argument against flossing or lining fish is made by those in denial. Try drifting a clear, colorless bead with pegged hook through a run crowded with fish and watch what happens.

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  41. Well well well!!! I love this site.
    Being that we are all so internet related to eachother as well as sharing the same life passions that keep us alive... FISHING....

    I thought I would point out what our good friend WIKEPEDIA has to say about snagging.

    *"Snagging: also known as snag fishing, snatch fishing, or FOUL HOOKING, is a method of fishing that entails catching a fish using hooks WITHOUT the fish having to take the bait with their mouth. This is achieved by pulling the fishing line out of the water very quickly as soon as any movement is felt on the line, with the intention of piercing the fish in the flesh with the hook. Weighted lures with multiple hooks are often used to increase chances of success."*

    Key words here are "without the fish taking the bait" But thats just wikipedia right? After reading almost all of the comments as they move accross this post.
    My honest opinion here is this...
    I have seen trout taken in every way and put back in the water. I realize what the sport of fly fishing is supposed to be, as well as the art of tying flies. That being said, Never in any book or from any teacher have I been told where on my fly my hook should be.

    I've Seen stinger hooks coming from the face of big stonefly patterns. Trailing hooks coming from a bunny leach, where the fish eats it head first and takes it outside the mouth almost every time. Most of us fish multiple flies to better our chances and accidentally snag a few.

    So are peg beads snagging or fly fishing? We still arent sure but I say it's fly fishing and fair because of the word "EAT"

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  42. Bigerrfish,

    Thank you for the very well put definition of snagging. Bead fishing is far from snagging. I have been bead fishing in Alaska for over 15 years. Before it was ever popular. Glo Bugs and imitation egg flies just don’t cut it and are not effective. I am a very avid fly fisherman and believe in the true art and traditions of fly fishing. I am also very knowledgeable of the conservation and safeguarding of or beautiful trout and char in Alaska. In my defense of calling bead fishing a form of fly fishing is that I make my own polymer clay beads. Just as you would tie your own flies. I mix colors and make swirled beads and role them in different diameters. It is matching the hatch in its purity. I incorporate them into my fly patterns for steelhead salmon and trout. I also pick the beads above a hook. It has endless variation and applications with in fly fishing. You can also put it on a spinning rod if that is your preference.

    There is a state law in Alaska that prevents the bead from being pegged more than 2 inches above the hook. This virtually eliminates the hook from being imbedded anywhere but the corner of the mouth. I have caught 1000’s of trout with this method. I have not found by any measurable amount that the hook is snagged outside of the mouth. It is always in the outside corner. The only thing that I feel could help with the protection of trout is the use of barbless hooks. I feel it should be a state law or enforced on more popular trout streams.

    For all of you bead haters out there I dare you to try and out fish me. I will put you to shame any day bead fishing for trout with a fly rod. It is sometimes more effecting than bait and the fish don’t swallow the beads period. If you have never bead fished before than I don’t think you can comment on its ethics because you have no clue. I dare all of you “I refuse to try it” or “Don’t like it for clueless reason” to try it sometime with a fly rod. I will recommend any type of Czech or Polish nymphing strategies as also being very effective with beading.

    To Each His Own. Every person is entitled to his or her personal preferences and tastes. I thoroughly enjoy bead fishing with my fly rod and I call it a form of fly fishing. We will all have or differences but we should all respect the fish because without them this would be pointless. I always try to be a very ethical fisherman and always practice catch and safe release.

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    1. "For all of you bead haters out there I dare you to try and out fish me. I will put you to shame any day bead fishing for trout with a fly rod."

      Brother...no one is doubting your cock size AT ALL! The effectiveness of the pegged bead has never been in question.

      "We will all have or differences but we should all respect the fish because without them this would be pointless. I always try to be a very ethical fisherman and always practice catch and safe release."

      Well said.

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  43. Just think of the bead egg with hook 2" below as a 2 1/4 inch streamer.

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    1. Great idea! And I will think of my beat-up old pick up as a shiny new BMW and feel waaaaay better about myself!

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  44. This is the problem with this countrys citizens, we always have to nit pick everything someone does that doesnt fit with your touchy feely animal rights views. Bottom line is fly fisherman are some of the if not the most respectfull sportsmen in the outdoors, you'd be hard pressed to find a group of people who care more about the animals they peruse as well as the ecosystems they live in, fly fisherman are not going to take part in a practice that directly threatens the health of the fish, (there are always those few guys that are the exception with everything) an the second something comes onto the market that is legitimately proven to be dangerous to these fish they will be turned away by the fly fishing community. Also, the argument about whether it is a fly or not well that's like deciding which god to beleive in, it's personal, make your choice and keep it to yourself, don't judge the next guy, he ain't doin anything wrong and there's no reason to argue about it. DON'T USE THEM if it's not your idea of fly fishing, these fish are not being snagged in the gut or tails there is not enough line between the egg and hook to do so, there is a way to rig them correctly to have virtually no foul Hooking, the hooks end up in the mouth because THE FISH ATE THE EGG, therefore it's not snagging. It's like running a stinger hook off the back of a fire ball jig for walleye fishing, the tag end is so short you dot snag the fish you hook them in the jaw. Just go out and fish! Don't judge the next guy unless he's throwin dynamite in the water, I am a fly fisherman and care a great deal about these precious resources and would in no way ever threaten the health of the trout I love to catch, I am all for ethical practices and very much against unethical practices, these eggs are not unethical.

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    1. Anonymous I agree anonymously... All but the part about the walleye I don't get that

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    2. Two things: One, you make some very good points in this comment, but to start it off "This is the problem with this countrys citizens, we always have to nit pick everything someone does that doesnt fit with your touchy feely animal rights views." Kind of makes you sound like a fucking dumb ass. Sure, you can most likely find two dozen lines of mine in this comment train that makes me sound even worse...so, we are on our way to being even. Second: "THE FISH ATE THE EGG, therefore it's not snagging." Not in my opinion...AT ALL! But that I think I covered toward the end of the article...

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  45. In terms of struggling just where to draw the line on this stuff, consider this scenario: You're using a 2.5 inch single hook articulated streamer pattern, a state record fish bites at it and gets hooked on the outside of the jaw instead of inside the mouth. Would you just release it as foul hooked and not claim the new state record? What if it was a world record, with real potential for monetary recognition?

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    1. See, this kind of comment is what makes this all fun! THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION IS FUN, GOD DAMMIT! That is a good question...

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  46. Is it impossible to believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion? The act of telling someone that you are more sophisticated because you are tricking a fish into taking the hook into it's mouth is nothing more than snobbery.
    I am an angler! I put a line in the water and pull out a fish. Period. End of story. Nice argument, if your goal is alienating people.

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    1. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No shit. Does my opinion alienate you? Does it make you want to give up fly fishing? If it does, then I fear you would have found some other silly-ass reason sooner or later... Or, wait. You don't fly fish? Tried it once and it was hard? But you like to tell people you don't because of "snobby assholes" like me? Got it.

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  48. I agree with Tstar. Everything about this article came across as snobbery --whether that was your intention or not, and if you really want to cut down to the meat of it, this way of thinking is what prevents more people from getting into our sport... I have been tying flies for 15 years, and been fishing and guiding with pegged eggs for the last 6 months, and I can say with complete confidence most of our fish are hooked on the inside of the upper lip. I have only hooked one out of hundreds of fish anywhere but in the mouth with the hook 2 inches away from the bead. I haven't been using pegged beads long enough, nor am i that passionate about them, to be defensive. It is a weapon in the arsenal, and you can have a tight butt hole about it and scare people away from trying fly-fishing by being a snob about what defines a fly, or you can chill and live by a different credo.

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    1. Jon, with all due respect, I think you are wrong. It is not "this way of thinking is what prevents more people from getting into our sport". If someone is inclined to get into fishing then, one way or another, they will. There are many different ways, styles and methods to fish and that person will find the one that fits them best. Or try them all! And that is AWESOME!Your job, as a guide, may be to get your client into fish on one given day (sure, you like think you are teaching them to be better fishermen and improving the rest of their angling life, but for the most part you are only fooling yourself. Trust me, I have not been doing this for six months)...whereas MY job is to teach people what fly fishing is...and what flies are (and how to tie them). What I have found is what lures people into fly fishing over other forms of fishing is the history of it, the grace and perceived romance of it, the traditions of it, the "art" of it,the challenge of it. I understand this concept...it is why I am paid to teach fly fishing classes, fly tying classes, design the flies in the fly bins and write the books about "our" sport. Saying what you have, Jon, is on par with: "If fighter pilots weren't so arrogant, more little boys and girls would want to go to flight school." Dead Fucking Wrong.

      I will conclude with a line from the very start of this comment thread, posted by Anonymous (I have since learned who that particular "anonymous" was, by the way. Kind of a legend in the sport, someone who all of you have learned something from, I have no doubt.)

      "The sooner we all admit that this game we play is NOT about catching fish at any cost, the better off we'll all be. Fish eat cheese, marshmallows and corn too. Flyfishing is SUPPOSED TO BE more difficult!"

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  49. Maybe attempting to address this subject using very simple linguistic semantics was not the best choice...because so many of you are really missing the entire point of this discussion/debate. And I am so bored of having to keep visiting this comment thread to correct the same damn misconception again and again...or call out another bitch ass who gets their panties bound up deep in their own ass. At one time or another in my life I have taken fish in every way you can dream up, people...netted them, noodled them, speared them, poisoned them, blown them out of the water (with home-made pipe bombs and real-ass hand grenades)shot them (with bows, rifles and belt-fed machine guns)taken them on miles-long commercial long lines, taken them with every type of bait out there (squid, minnows, meal worms, power bait, chicken livers, even raised my own night crawlers down in my folks root seller). The reasons I did all this was the same reason all you other swingin' dicks do what you do. Because we are addicted to and love to fish. Find fish. Chase fish. Catch fish. What I have learned from this life obsession is that (FOR ME) the most rewarding way to fish is with a fly rod, using flies that I have not only tied, but designed myself. And I prefer wild fish, so tend to release them as unharmed as possible. I could not give a damn how how the rest of you fish, as long as it is lawful and respectful. (And, yes, I was a law-breaker and poacher when I was a kid. But I grew up.) Now, the reason I wrote this article was because I was being repeatedly asked WHY I did not use the "pegged bead" method in my own fishing arsenal. So I explained...in print. Do I have to fucking explain why I don't use pipe bombs anymore? Again...this article was written to explain why I do not peg beads. And, because I am fascinated with etymology and semantics I attempted to use these in my explanation. What is a fly? Where did the word "angling" come from? What does the word "sporting" mean and why do we care?

    But I think a lot of you missed all this...so I will break it down in a language more easy to understand. I don't care what you do. I don't peg beads because all I do anymore is fly fish. And, no, I don't think pegging beads is fly fishing. (Maybe you do! Again, I DON'T CARE!)If you are not pleased with the way I have addressed this subject you can do one of two things. Go eat a dick. Or come find me and punch me in the face. I am easy to find and would love to break the monotony with a little violent man time.

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